Give VW enhanced senses back / VW fixing thread

[darkwingstalker]

The Void Walker's flavour is that they're a hunter that finds single targets and kills them - their kit suits this with targets that emphasis hiding and getting into places to find targets, but taking ES away from them has meant that running through walls now is actually not that effective as you have to just... mash hide repeatedly to hope you turn up someone hiding.

I know ES was also taken away from Exalted Harbringer and Seraph - not concerned about Seraph who I view as mostly analogous to the Infernal Behemoth, but as Exalted Harbinger (VW's good guy alternative, in my mind) has a way to find targets with demon tracker, it seems weird that VW doesn't have a way to locate hidden foes, also. I'd argue that the kit is great for hunting (even after the significant nerf with soak breaking) but the lack of ES feels like a real lack. Assassin's Edge also is quite confusing and I think I'll probably have some thoughts there but I'd like some experience with the skill in action for a considered opinion, I'm curious about the design decision behind removing ES from the VW and if I'm actually considering the class incorrectly, but it feels like the hunter of the darkness should be a little better at hunting in the darkness, rather than "Pariah that can run through walls", and if ES isn't on the cards, something else to locate targets seems sorely needed.

[SaltedSalmon]

Enhanced Senses was removed from most classes solely so the skill would me more unique to Myrmidons and so the Hide tree wasn't a useless.
Removing it from Void Walker without providing a alternative may have been overzealous, however.

[Goliath]

Fully agreed VWs missing ES feels like a big let-down.

[MrFrank]

VW definitely needs a detection skill of some kind, doesn't have to be ES exactly. Goliath posted this suggestion earlier which is pretty good. And another version shared in Discord was that they should be able to sense characters that are alone, so they'd be able to ignore the obvious congregations in factions and hunt vulnerable solo characters out there. I'm inclined to post a suggestion later too, if I can come up with something interesting.

[Nayru]

could just give it back regular costed interior movement

checking interiors 4x more efficiently than the runner-up classes -is- something relevant to hunting

but that absolutely could not exist while vw had es, now it doesn't

[darkwingstalker]

could just give it back regular costed interior movement

checking interiors 4x more efficiently than the runner-up classes -is- something relevant to hunting

but that absolutely could not exist while vw had es, now it doesn't

The wiki says that interior movement is still regular costed?

If this is the case I'd still rather regular interior movement as you're burning that saved AP on searches.

[Fellis]

Corner step is 2 AP currently, and is reduced to 1 with Ether stepping. Nayru means reduce that to 1, which would be 0.5

VW definitely needs a detection skill of some kind, doesn't have to be ES exactly. Goliath posted this suggestion earlier which is pretty good.

And another version shared in Discord was that they should be able to sense characters that are alone, so they'd be able to ignore the obvious congregations in factions and hunt vulnerable solo characters out there. I'm inclined to post a suggestion later too, if I can come up with something interesting.

First suggestion is kinda meh, because not a lot of people hiding with less HP, and if they are, they are likely demons which goes against the more alignment focused conflict this breath. Also I think if the skill was implemented, you would see people making damn sure they healed up to full before they hid, even if it cost them more AP than just dying.

Second suggestion I don't like because unfactioned players are already playing with a pretty big disadvantage (this is a game of factional conflict but it doesn't mean punt unfactioned), the skill would even further reduce the viability of hiding anywhere without a SH ward/factional coordination because the only counterplay is having a buddy.

I agree with the intent of the suggestion though, I think the changes to ES have really demonstrated that it was "bad" only in the context of ultra lategame B4, and it's still strong as ever when there aren't SH up. VW should get something to enable their hunting, but really I think there needs to be more fundamental change to ES because it chokes out the design space for hunting when there is already a skill that enables it so hard

[SignedName]

Maybe give the VW a "Shadowsight" skill that lets them see hidden characters when they are also hiding? Fits in thematically with the VW as a class, and combined with Adept of the Shadow, functionally works as Enhanced Senses since hidden status is maintained during movement.

I agree with the intent of the suggestion though, I think the changes to ES have really demonstrated that it was "bad" only in the context of ultra lategame B4, and it's still strong as ever when there aren't SH up. VW should get something to enable their hunting, but really I think there needs to be more fundamental change to ES because it chokes out the design space for hunting when there is already a skill that enables it so hard

If there's a fundamental issue with ES, maybe it should be nerfed in some way? For example, rolling an automatic "search" attempt that can find a hidden character for each action taken in a tile (including moving in/outdoors or onto a tile). Would still be a potent tool for finding hidden characters, but wouldn't make hiding useless.

[Fellis]

Maybe give the VW a "Shadowsight" skill that lets them see hidden characters when they are also hiding? Fits in thematically with the VW as a class, and combined with Adept of the Shadow, functionally works as Enhanced Senses since hidden status is maintained during movement.

If there's a fundamental issue with ES, maybe it should be nerfed in some way? For example, rolling an automatic "search" attempt that can find a hidden character for each action taken in a tile (including moving in/outdoors or onto a tile). Would still be a potent tool for finding hidden characters, but wouldn't make hiding useless.

We've had some ideas for what to do with ES, but yeah coming up with nerfed ES to replace it is the tricky part. I think auto rolling searches was mentioned in dev conversation but you saying it again made me think that what if you searched and got 2x-3x rolls per action.

I thiink there are code difficulties for shadowhunting hidden, and it kind of makes corner step completely useless since you'd rather be outside then. Not really a good reason, but it corner step is very core to the class identity imo.

I wonder if there is something that could be done with mark of assassin since that needs to be changed as well, like maybe it jumps automatically to the nearest X target where X is dependent on the stance you have up and you get some indication of their direction to a 5x5 area that you then explore

[SignedName]

Another solution for a weakened ES could be for some text to appear if hiding characters are in the same tile, perhaps combined with something else like the auto-search.

As for Corner Stepping- does it really unhide you? Or do you mean most people hide outdoors?