Badges, ranks, The Grind: A discussion

[Lychwood]

Personally, I have a hard time coming up with something easily trackable, universally accessible, and engaging to play that would replace the badge grind.

Current grinds are rough. Absolutely rough. When I have too many characters grinding at once my inspiration to log in drops hard.

It might be a decent band-aid to tie the current ranks system to Breath Badges exclusively (significantly cuts veteran bias) and also drop the badge requirements to 250/500 or even lower. The current time commitment required to get the badges really exacerbates how dull the actual content is. If it were quicker and more painless, the system would be less onerous to live with. I think that'd also work well with adding more grinds and allowing more than two "tiers" of each badge, as recommended upthread.

That said, I feel like it would be preferable to find a more exciting system of earning post-max CP. There may be some merit in tying it to performance in the various class endgame metas, however that would require endgame content for every T3 class and significant retooling of existing endgames to not have build prerequisites.

[Goliath]

I had a mad idea about distributing extra CP in a competitive manner among class members, but that doesn't work quite well in classes that have playstyles as varied as Conduits (how do you tell whether a Wormhole Conduit is better than an enchanter one or an Arcane Trail one?).
I had also toyed with the idea of being given quests by the EPs, gaining extra CP from those.

A way to keep all of this fresh could be some sort of extra CP decay, so characters who wanted to operate at maximum CP potential would have to work on it on a more constant fashion (rather than doing a bunch of prep and enjoying the benefits without any further effort).

[elimyx]

A way to keep all of this fresh could be some sort of extra CP decay, so characters who wanted to operate at maximum CP potential would have to work on it on a more constant fashion (rather than doing a bunch of prep and enjoying the benefits without any further effort).

Admittedly, while this could be interesting in a shorter Breath, not a huge fan of this for regular play. That punishes classes that don't have a lot of AP to spare (like enchanters or PM's) pretty hard, unless it's things they can do while working on their regular faction duties.

[Goliath]

A way to keep all of this fresh could be some sort of extra CP decay, so characters who wanted to operate at maximum CP potential would have to work on it on a more constant fashion (rather than doing a bunch of prep and enjoying the benefits without any further effort).

Admittedly, while this could be interesting in a shorter Breath, not a huge fan of this for regular play. That punishes classes that don't have a lot of AP to spare (like enchanters or PM's) pretty hard, unless it's things they can do while working on their regular faction duties.

Easily solvable by either making this something tight-on-AP classes can do normally or by making their AP more flexible.

[Dissident]

That said, I feel like it would be preferable to find a more exciting system of earning post-max CP. There may be some merit in tying it to performance in the various class endgame metas, however that would require endgame content for every T3 class and significant retooling of existing endgames to not have build prerequisites.

For sure but I'm of the impression that the less change in the system the more likely it is to be implemented in live with less coding and bugs.

A way to keep all of this fresh could be some sort of extra CP decay, so characters who wanted to operate at maximum CP potential would have to work on it on a more constant fashion (rather than doing a bunch of prep and enjoying the benefits without any further effort).

You say Fresh, I read :CHORE: This is worse than the current system because at least when we're done we're done with the current grind. If I have to keep climbing the same building to get the same monthly reward then it's a job.

I actually really like Repth's Carousel. If you bring more of these permanent events in the game and tie it with Achievement Badges, I dont think we'll be short on endgame content and reach those ranks while at it.

[Kandarin]

Summarizing and heavily paraphrasing the feedback here, I'm reading it as something like this:

• Vast amounts of searching is boring. (NearNihil)
• Being able to pick which things you do to get the badges you feel you need would be an acceptable fix. (NearNihil)
• Reducing the number of extant badges, getting rid of the ones I find boring, and adding more reward badges to the ones I like, would be an acceptable fix. (NearNihil)
• Rewarding in-breath veterancy (as with levels) is fine but multi-breath veterancy should not be rewarded. (Fellis)
• The amount of CP you can get from badges now is a good one for post-max CP. (Fellis)
• Making grinds as they are the core of post-max CP gain is bad, and it'd be better to come from something else. (Fellis)
• Eliminating post-max CP is undesirable as a lot of classes don't feel right without post-max CP. (Dissident)
• I'd like to see achievements tied to more stuff. (Dissident)
• Grinding as-is incentivizes stuff that takes people out of regular play, since you feel you have to do the unfun repetitive stuff to advance past a certain point. (Alkasyn)
• Eliminating grind CP without a solid replacement everyone can agree on would have unintended consequences - it'd reduce build diversity because in a tighter-CP world there'd be more push to be "optimal". (elimyx)
• I'd like to see achievement grinds stay in some form but be easier and more accessible without super-veterancy. (elimyx)
• We need a bunch more badges and grinds for a bunch more things. (Skullface)
• It should be possible to get more out of the grinds you want to focus on. (Klapaucius)
• The current system rewards veterancy way too much. (Klapaucius)
• Putting more emphasis on breath badges and/or expanding the number of achievements would be desirable. (Klapaucius)
• Putting in a good word for search badges: they mean items have trade value that would not otherwise, which provides a medium of exchange which is neat. (RKBBQ)
• I'd like something to totally replace The Grind but it'd have to be an amazing silver bullet of an idea and we don't seem to have one. (Lychwood)
• One possible solution would be to switch gears to Breath badges and lower the requirements. (Lychwood)
• Making people renew their effort to get their reward is good, instead of coasting on past breath veterancy. (Goliath)
• Doing the above via something that actively decays at a level less than per-breath is bad as it's a chore. (elimyx, Dissident)
• More Other Endgame Content would be extremely valuable. (Dissident)

The general themes I'm seeing are these:

• People generally like some areas of the game more than others and dislike having to be a completionist who dips into all of them to get all the rewards. No matter what you like, grinds as-is force you to do some things you dislike to get all the rewards.
• Related to the above: most grinds/achievements have both fans and people who think of it as a chore. Some recurring activities have fans who would like to see those activities turned into more grinds/achievements. There aren't (any?) universally loved or universally reviled grinds/achievements, but everyone has some they'd like to skip.
• Post-maxout CP is a good concept and some classes and builds feel like they need it.
• People like the current means of post-maxout CP, but dislike many details of the method by which you get it.
• There isn't any agreement on any start-from-scratch mechanic to totally replace badge grinds, and some people genuinely like that the mechanic exists, just not all the particulars.
• Having something to do after you reach max level that feels like further progress is important.
• No one is interested in vocally defending the idea of veterancy granting huge boons across multiple breaths. People generally support evening the playing field between veterans and more recent arrivals, but not by destroying the current system unless there's a solid replacement.

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To try to hit all of those points at once, what I'd propose is to keep the current system more or less intact (ten Ranks that grant 30 CP blocks and are unlocked post-max by achievement stats) but change how they are earned thusly (I really like bulleted lists, can you tell?) with its core elements as this:
1. Allow lower-level achievement thresholds to count toward Ranks (50, 100, that kind of thing, in addition to current 500/1000 thresholds), allowing many grind areas to be skipped entirely by counting individual achievement types to count toward more of the total.
2. However, tie Ranks to Breath achievement stats instead of Career achievement stats, making Ranks a matter of in-breath advancement rather than multi-year veterancy - how long you'd had the character in a breath would still matter as long as they were active and doing stuff. In practice you'd have to Do a lot of Stuff in a Breath to complete this, but would have a lot more freedom to choose your focus of what the Stuff is.
3. Possibly shuffle the numbers of achievements needed for Rank thresholds a bit to ensure that it'd take meaningfully longer than maxing out to complete this but still is quite doable in the span of a single Breath.

This hits the key points - allowing whatever grinds you personally dislike to be skipped, avoiding multi-breath advantages, while keeping post-max achievement CP intact and in the same amount. I believe this would also be quite technically manageable to do via a function that reshuffles people's Rank eligibility, though we might have to add a bunch more Breath badges to define the new milestones and make them visible. Also it would not preclude (but would not require) later doing some additional aspects some have suggested here if they are still desired:

4. Adding more achievement categories like items searched, transcend kills, tiles explored, etc.
5. Adding some non-CP, thematically appropriate reward for badges.
6. Adding post-1000 super grinder badges for the leaderboard folks, which might count toward Ranks for people who want to just drill into a short list of things.

[Nova]

I would like to say, if more overall badges will count towards rank eligibility, that drastically reduces the difference between veterans and newbies even if they remain based on career badges. Especially given how much exp it takes to rank up in the first place: By the time they've gotten enough exp to rank up a newbie will probably have several ranks worth of grinds done under the proposed system.

That said, the idea of having to jump in a lake 500 times per breath sounds like it's veering into "chore" range. But this will also vastly reduce the time spent needing to grind since it's a lot faster to get 10, 50, 100 and 250 targets hit, deaths, and locks picked than it is to get 500 and 1000 targets, locks, doors fixed, doors destroyed, power cut, power restored AND pills taken, so my concern might not be warranted at all.

[Klapaucius]

I don't think cutting past breath veterancy completely would be great. A system that drops people's current rank mid breath without properly overhauling the system away from grinds would be a rocky change IMO.

really think a compromise which rewards current breath AND previous breath achievements equally would be good, since it allows new characters to catch up quite quickly but doesn't take previously earned grinding off veterans. Don't make anyone feel like they need to do another 1000 lockpicks. But if someone chooses to grind to 30 via books this breath while already having the achievement, it's not just 'wasted grind' for them.

Edit accidentally messed with this post then fixed it again

[NearNihil]

I don't think cutting past breath veterancy completely would be great. A system that drops people's current rank mid breath without properly overhauling the system away from grinds would be a rocky change IMO.

I really think a compromise which rewards current breath AND previous breath achievements equally would be good, since it allows new characters to catch up quite quickly but doesn't take previously earned grinding off veterans. Don't make anyone feel like they need to do another 1000 lockpicks. But if someone chooses to grind to 30 via books this breath while already having the achievement, it's not just 'wasted grind' for them.

A possible solution to this could be something like "the last four badges only count this breath but the last two also count in the next one", so this breath you could do 100, 250, 500 and 1000 kills but only the 500 and 1000 would carry over. Alternatively, the easier ones count instead, which still rewards long-term play but not as much.

[Nayru]

cp off grinds has needed to die for years - since the day i showed up - since years before my time - for over a decade

just because the game would be phenomenally better off with its skill progression purely routed through playing it does not insist that the grind system be deleted entirely, rather it'd be likely more engaging with unique mechanical perks

that's all i've ever had in regards to thoughts on this, i was dead sure about halved pet xp and i'm dead sure about this