Feedback: Fallen (Ex-Shepherd)

[plum]

I've seen some discussion about Fallen here/on Discord recently, and since it looks like future reworks are likely I thought I'd share some more thoughts about playing the class. For context, a while back I posted https://nexusclash.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 1660#p1660 about some issues I anticipated having, before I hit T3. Now that I've hit level 30, I have some more perspective on those hypotheses, and feel more comfortable bikeshedding a bit. I think I have a potentially valuable perspective in that, as of this writing, I am the only Fallen at level cap as well as the only offensive caster Fallen (well, at least the only Fallen with Spell Combat and Battle Magic).

So, Fallen. There are currently 12 Fallen in the Nexus. Only 3 of those Fallen are Ex-Shepherds, making them the second rarest class (after Ex-Defiler Redeemed, the other hybrid caster). I think that's fairly natural; I would expect the number of hybrids generally to be lower given the more irritating MO requirements during T2. But why is caster Fallen specifically so much less popular than Ex-Paladin?

One might think that, like the "melee casters" (HC, NC, DH), Fallen just doesn't have support for a combat magic-focused playstyle. The pick rate for Spellcraft/Tattoo of Sorcery is similarly low on those classes, and I expect it's mostly picked up for utility/buffs rather than as a serious offensive option. However, this isn't the case! Fallen actually has great support skills for casting: in addition to the full Battle Magic tree, Fallen have access to Oath of Steel and Bond of the Mechanical, which grant an additional +3 damage and +10% accuracy to spells. They also receive an additional +0-2 spell damage from Fractured Vessel depending on their current MP. This is reasonably comparable to the spell damage bonuses on the more traditional battlemages like Corruptor and Wizard. So if it's not missing damage that's hurting caster Fallen, what is?

I think comparing to Corruptor, the other Evil battlemage, is most illustrative - the two classes have a lot of similarities. They have comparable raw spell damage bonuses (Fallen slightly edges out in raw damage/hit, Corruptor has better utility on Hexes). They both have Thorough Desecration, a skill that strongly influences playstyle (more on that later). They both have a melee innate. What are the differences?

On the one side, Corruptor has a pile of cool toys: Manabiter, Bees, and pet stealing. Their movement skill is kind of the "baseline"; not the best, but they can get over barricades so not the worst anymore. Corruptor also gets a huge pile of +MP cap from Cosmic Affinity and Cosmic Mastery, and a bunch of MP regeneration tools from T2 like Dark Heart and Soul Vampire.

On the other side, Fallen notably has MP respawn and Sadistic Glee. Their movement skill is neat and probably better than wings in a vacuum, but hurt badly by barricades. However, unlike other casters they don't get Cosmic Affinity/Mastery, and having to spend 20-30 MP (depending on whether you want to be stuck in Elysium) severely limits their MP pool. Compared to Corruptor's 89 MP at level 30 with lore, Fallen effectively has 29 MP on a fresh respawn, and without Manabiter/Dark Heart/Soul Vampire to easily replenish it.

Everything I've written so far seems pretty down on caster Fallen, but I actually think it's really powerful and fun to play despite all of the (definitely real) jank and poor MP economy. So, where does caster Fallen succeed? Well, if you don't want to just be playing a Corruptor without petsteal or bees or huge MP economy, you need to play to Fallen's strengths, and that means Sadistic Glee + Thorough Desecration. Here's an example of how that looks:

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- (4 times) You feel infernal favor enter your soul, restoring some of your magic. (2022-01-27 16:33:59).
- You step inside The Shield and Sword. (2022-01-27 16:34:10).
- You attack Azathoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 24 points of impact damage. You gain 12 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:13).
- Azathoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! (2022-01-27 16:34:15).
- Yog-Sothoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! (2022-01-27 16:34:15).
- Shub-Niggurath, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 8 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:15).
- Cthulhu, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 8 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:15).
- Azathoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! (2022-01-27 16:34:15).
- You attack Azathoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 24 points of impact damage. You gain 12 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:16).
- Azathoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 9 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:16).
- You attack Azathoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 24 points of impact damage. You gain 12 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:16).
- Azathoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 9 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:16).
- You attack Azathoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 24 points of impact damage. You gain 12 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 10 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:34:17).
- You attack Cthulhu, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:34:19).
- Cthulhu, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 9 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:19).
- You attack Cthulhu, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 24 points of impact damage. You gain 12 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:20).
- Cthulhu, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 9 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:20).
- You step outside of The Shield and Sword. (2022-01-27 16:34:21).
- (2 times) You crush the Blood Ice in your hand. As you do so, you feel its dark magic seep through you, mending your flesh. (2022-01-27 16:34:28).
- You activate the Boon of Tlacolotl, cloaking yourself in a cloak of malice and brimstone that will deal unholy damage. While the boon is active, supplemental damage dealt by your attacks will be unsoakable. (2022-01-27 16:34:31).
- You feel a rush of power as the Boon of Tholaghru descends upon you. With each action you take, you will gain 2 hit points (4 if the action is an attack) while the Boon lasts. This gain can take you over your normal maximum, though any excess will be lost when the Boon is withdrawn. (2022-01-27 16:34:32).
- You step inside The Shield and Sword. (2022-01-27 16:34:34).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 2 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:35).
- You attack Cthulhu, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:39).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:39).
- Cthulhu, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 9 points of holy damage. Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:39).
- You attack Cthulhu, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:34:39).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:39).
- Cthulhu, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 9 points of holy damage. Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:39).
- You attack Cthulhu, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 10 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:34:40).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:40).
- You attack Shub-Niggurath, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:41).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:41).
- Shub-Niggurath, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:43).
- You attack Shub-Niggurath, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:45).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:45).
- Shub-Niggurath, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 10 points of holy damage. Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:45).
- Yog-Sothoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:45).
- Shub-Niggurath, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:45).
- You crush the Soul Ice in your hand. As you do so, you feel its dark magic seep through you, restoring your magic. (2022-01-27 16:34:48).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 2 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:48).
- You attack Shub-Niggurath, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 10 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:34:49).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:49).
- You attack Yog-Sothoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:50).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:50).
- Yog-Sothoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 10 points of holy damage. Waves of unholy energy radiate from your body! They take 6 points of unholy damage! (2022-01-27 16:34:50).
- You attack Yog-Sothoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. (2022-01-27 16:34:51).
- You feel the effects of Boon of Tlacolotl fade. (2022-01-27 16:34:51).
- You feel the effects of Sulphurous Cloak fade. (2022-01-27 16:34:51).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:51).
- Yog-Sothoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and missed! (2022-01-27 16:34:51).
- Yog-Sothoth, a Judgemaster, belonging to Abdul Alhazred, attacked you and hit for 10 points of holy damage. (2022-01-27 16:34:52).
- You attack Yog-Sothoth, a(n) Judgemaster with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 11 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 10 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:34:53).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:53).
- You crush the Soul Ice in your hand. As you do so, you feel its dark magic seep through you, restoring your magic. (2022-01-27 16:34:55).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 2 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:34:55).
- You attack A.C.E. Eir with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 23 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:00).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:00).
- You attack A.C.E. Eir with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 23 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:02).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:02).
- Dark energies pulse in the air around you for a moment and then coalesce in your hand. You gain two Soul Ices. (2022-01-27 16:35:03).
- Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 4 AP. (2022-01-27 16:35:03).
- You attack A.C.E. Eir with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 23 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 23 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:35:03).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:03).
- You attack Abdul Alhazred with your Mage Gauntlets spell and hit for 16 points of impact damage. You gain 16 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:05).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:05).
- You crush the Soul Ice in your hand. As you do so, you feel its dark magic seep through you, restoring your magic. (2022-01-27 16:35:10).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 2 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:10).
- You attack Seneca Falls with your Earthwail spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:35:20).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:20).
- You attack Seneca Falls with your Earthwail spell and hit for 18 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 18 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:21).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:21).
- You attack Seneca Falls with your Earthwail spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:35:22).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:22).
- You attack Seneca Falls with your Mage Gauntlets spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:35:23).
- You feel the effects of Boon of Tholaghru fade. (2022-01-27 16:35:23).
- You feel the Boon of Tholaghru strengthing your mortal form. You gain 4 Hit Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:23).
- You crush the Soul Ice in your hand. As you do so, you feel its dark magic seep through you, restoring your magic. (2022-01-27 16:35:27).
- (2 times) You feel infernal favor enter your soul, restoring some of your magic. (2022-01-27 16:35:31).
- (2 times) You attack Seneca Falls with your Earthwail spell and hit for 19 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 19 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:36).
- (2 times) Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 4 AP. (2022-01-27 16:35:37).
- You attack Seneca Falls with your Earthwail spell and hit for 18 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 18 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 20 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:35:37).
- (2 times) Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 3 AP. (2022-01-27 16:35:40).
- You attack Abdul Alhazred with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 23 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:46).
- You feel the demonic curse in your blood well with magic power as the hand of the dark powers touches you. Each time you take an action, you will take 1 point of damage and gain 2 Magic Points. (2022-01-27 16:35:48).
- Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 4 AP. (2022-01-27 16:35:48).
- Your experience gain for this action has not occurred! You should discuss this error message with the development team. (2022-01-27 16:35:48).
- You have earned the Ruiner badge! (2022-01-27 16:35:48).
- You attack Abdul Alhazred with your Earthwail spell and hit for 23 points of impact damage. You gain 23 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 21 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:35:48).
- (3 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:35:56).
- You attack Alexios Kataphraktos with your Earthwail spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:35:56).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:35:56).
- You attack Alexios Kataphraktos with your Earthwail spell and hit for 18 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:57).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:35:57).
- You attack Alexios Kataphraktos with your Earthwail spell and hit for 18 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. (2022-01-27 16:35:59).
- (3 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:00).
- You attack Alexios Kataphraktos with your Earthwail spell and miss. (2022-01-27 16:36:00).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:00).
- You attack Alexios Kataphraktos with your Earthwail spell and hit for 18 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. (2022-01-27 16:36:01).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:01).
- Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 4 AP. (2022-01-27 16:36:02).
- Dark energies pulse in the air around you for a moment and then coalesce in your hand. You gain two Soul Ices. (2022-01-27 16:36:02).
- You attack Alexios Kataphraktos with your Earthwail spell and hit for 18 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 5 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 7 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:36:02).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:03).
- You attack Dr.Acula with your Earthwail spell and hit for 21 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 2 points of damage. You gain 9 XP. (2022-01-27 16:36:09).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:09).
- Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 4 AP. (2022-01-27 16:36:10).
- You feel the demonic curse in your blood well with magic power as the hand of the dark powers touches you. Each time you take an action, you will take 1 point of damage and gain 2 Magic Points. (2022-01-27 16:36:10).
- You attack Dr.Acula with your Earthwail spell and hit for 22 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 2 points of damage. You gain 9 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 7 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:36:10).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:10).
- You attack Virgil Firebrand with your Earthwail spell and hit for 20 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 4 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. (2022-01-27 16:36:14).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:14).
- You attack Virgil Firebrand with your Earthwail spell and hit for 20 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 4 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. (2022-01-27 16:36:16).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:16).
- Exhilaration born of the death throes of the slaughtered fills you. You gain 4 AP. (2022-01-27 16:36:17).
- Dark energies pulse in the air around you for a moment and then coalesce in your hand. You gain two Blood Ices. (2022-01-27 16:36:17).
- You attack Virgil Firebrand with your Earthwail spell and hit for 20 points of impact damage. His armor soaked 4 points of damage. You gain 8 XP. This was enough to kill them! You gain an additional 6 Experience Points! (2022-01-27 16:36:17).
- (2 times) Using your Blood Magic to power your magic, you take 1 point of damage. (2022-01-27 16:36:17). 

The above is a pretty standard soloraid on a small petwall and 6 angels in Elysium, which is something that most T3s can easily pull off with some resources and a pile of AP. What makes caster Fallen particularly and uniquely good is that the above interaction, involving several dozen attacks, generated AP and MP. Sadistic Glee grants +1AP when killing a pet, +2AP for killing a non-angel, and +3AP for killing an angel. On top of this, each level 4 Desecration has a 35% chance to earn Fallen +4 AP, or on average 0.35 * 4 = 1.4AP/desecrate. Since you get two rolls per kill with Thorough Desecration, that's another +2.8AP every kill on average, along with a big pile of MP, Soul Ice, or HP on missed rolls. You can further desecrate corpses for even more resources. In crowded locations, caster Fallen becomes a living AoE attack: once you or your faction busts down the petwalls and glyphs, you can attack and attack and attack until everyone in the area is dead, so long as you have high enough raw damage / AP (which offensive spells are very good at achieving!)

So that's caster Fallen's niche: you're a worse Corruptor in many ways, but you have supercharged AP economy from the combination of Sadistic Glee, double desecrates, and MP respawns. I'd probably compare this to the Wizard's MP regen + Mystic Vigor combo in power, so long as you're able to consistently raid or hunt angels. I enjoy this playstyle quite a bit (exploding angel AP piñata dopamine go brrrr), and it's been fairly effective at getting XP. I think overall what the class needs isn't a total rework, but quality of life improvements and slightly better MP. More importantly, there are quite a lot of skills (Uncanny Allure, Dividend of Indolence tree, Infernal Gullet, Blasphemy tree, Dark Aura tree) that really don't do anything at all for Fallen. Maybe they're slightly better on Ex-Paladin, but I can't see ever taking most of them on any build.

tl;dr:
- ex-shep fallen is corruptor variant with awful mp but good ap
- ex-shep has a coherent playstyle, ex-pal idk
- fallen has a bunch of skills that do not do very much
- but thats maybe ok for ex-shep? i bet ex-pal needs more help
- ok.
- 2xdesecrate good, sadistic glee good
- give soul vampire pls

EDIT:
also thank you to all devs for all of your hard work <3, b5 has been very cool and i want to make sure ends on broad positive sentiment vs nitpicks

[Kandarin]

This is more of a detailed analysis of an entire class and not a specific suggestion per se so I'm towing it to Mechanics.

[Skouth]

This post really has no bearing on fallen or balancing and I'm just nitpicking here but Cosmic Affinity/Mastery for Corruptor feels like a huge waste and I will look down upon anyone who picks up those skills for that class.
That's all I have to say, enjoy a free bump.

[plum]

This post really has no bearing on fallen or balancing and I'm just nitpicking here but Cosmic Affinity/Mastery for Corruptor feels like a huge waste and I will look down upon anyone who picks up those skills for that class.
That's all I have to say, enjoy a free bump.

hand em over, i'll trade u dark aura

[Azure]

Yeah I realised after scratching my head for a week on how to make Fallen work* (in it's current state) and I realised that going ex shep was mandatory for the double desecrate mp generation, the downside of this is that you dont get the +4 damage or the 20cp shadow Dirk.

Tl;dr ex-paladin is a noob-trap.

[Klapaucius]

There's a few classes which are currently AP generation powerhouses. Ex-shepherd fallen is probably number 1, as described above by Plum. I think this kind of power is innately challenging to balance, since anything you do to buff/debuff the class capabilities has a self-multiplying effect, and situations where the character can realistically just kill an infinite number of people become not just possible but quite easy to achieve.

I'd actually be tempted to compare ex-shepherd fallen to spellcasting doom howler. Very similar shtick. Better desecrations, but worse MP generation and not as tanky. Both benefit massively from DO support and have the capacity to essentially steamroll infinitely in the right circumstances.

Indolence is good if you hate fun. It's meta-abusable, and possible to generate a net AP profit with just a few fallen cooperating, but I feel like it goes against the spirit of the game as I see it, but that's the only reliable way to extract value from it. Otherwise you're just sort of unproductively tagging people with it and crossing your fingers.

Anyway - someone, get this fallen a soul ice pact!

[Nayru]

a random bit i'd note in lieu of full response is that i would generally lean towards non-defiler exits having their own final desecrate proc as opposed to all defaulting to +ap result on the variant but ye