Nexus Clash

Hey all,

Friendly neighborhood Lychwood here. I was just curious on getting some community thoughts on plane design--specifically outer planes. I know the opinions on them tend to be somewhat divided. A lot of people feel like they're big respawn traps that you need to waste AP to escape. Other people like hanging out there, farming them, and/or setting up strongholds there.

Discussion prompts:
What makes an outer plane "good"?
What makes them useful to you from a gameplay standpoint?
What makes them an attractive place to set your SH?
What makes them frustrating, and what do you think would help with those problems?
What kind of flavor mechanics make a plane interesting, and what ones do you find annoying?

TYFYS
<3 Lychwood

For the current ones, some thoughts:

Stygia is my favorite of the three, simply because the imps and hellhounds attract other players. I can do violence on any of those with any MO character (mostly) and just have a good time. It's also not too large, the portals are mostly close whenever you respawn, and for demons the search rates aren't bad for finding books and stuff. I don't go there to find items on non demons though.

Elysium I sort of like but can't put my finger on why. It's mostly with my Angels that I like the plane though. The bazillions of pets roaming around aren't really fodder like the ones in Stygia because they pack a good punch. Finding items is a breeze with Angels and you get pet camouflage to boot (that is, you can hide pretty much anywhere even with pets summoned outside and no one will care... so long as you're good aligned anyway). The smallish size also helps, as do the convenience portals and roads. I do feel the portals on the Cordi side are harder to get to than the Stygian ones but looking at the map it shouldn't be a big difference with the Centrum teleporters.

Purgatorio is big and empty for all I know. Occasionally I'll respawn there with an Unaligned character and just sit there harvesting, crafting, or both and die like a week later despite sitting somewhere in plain sight. The portals being tucked away in the northwest corner isn't helping its case either. Putting a SH all the way on the southeast end is for factions that raid but are never home. I am aware of chain gremlins and the water type zombies but I rarely interact with them or even see them, making them of little consequence. With the "I spawned here and can't be arsed getting out myself" stints I take most of the damage from roaming plague rats.

Pocket space (if that counts) I find interesting but it's kind of sad to see Ossuary is the only popular one. The beach was fun for the roleplaying event(s) but I don't think I've ever seen someone else in Bastion for example. I think it's because most of them are fairly resource poor - Ossuary is good for bones, gems and lore, what do the others have? Bastion maybe has guns? Swimwear for the beach? You can find those things just as well anywhere else. Having some unique mechanical trait would probably make them more popular (if that is indeed the goal).

I love Purgatorio because of the three it actually has some unique lore behind it that makes it interesting.

It also appeals to my hermitous nature because I can sit somewhere remote and no one will wander by and murder me like they will everywhere else.

Mechanically I don't like how it favors demons and angels more than transcendeds though. But other than that I like that it gives me a nowhere on the fringe of the nexus in which to hang out.

Oh my, can I talk about Purgatorio?
Cordillera is linked to all planes; all planes are linked to Cordi. Most of the action happens in Cordi anyways. So if you favor movement and action, your SH stays in Cordi; if you favor your own plane's home advantage, then good factions stay in Elysium and evil factions stay in Stygia.
Almost nobody should stay in Purgatorio.
- It doesn't give particular home benefits (no planar damage for your enemies, no particular benefits to you);
- Just as the other outer planes, it's only linked to Cordillera; but it's just so awfully connected. It's like someone thought, Hey how can we build a plane that is a real friggin' pain in the butt to respawn on? Oh easy, let's plan it basically as a group of islands surrounded by void, so the characters will either need to fly or walk through long, boring, depressing, obligatory bridges where nothing interesting will ever have any chance of happening, just some looong stretches of lost AP to go somewhere else. Then let's make two portals, but not like the Elysium and Stygia portals, no! Let's just connect them to the furthermost areas as possible to the middle of Cordillera, we don't want the Transcended to reach their SH so quickly. Oh wait though, there's a problem... see, the portal that links to the westmost area of Cordi is perfect, total AP waster, but the portal that would link to the eastmost area actually brings to a nice place, where people might want to build their SH. I know! I'm just going to put this one portal that brings to a decent place at the sh*tmost location in Purgatorio that I can think of, look, I've planned a very isolated area surrounded by void, right at the periphery of Purgatorio, with another silly bridge as the sole connection! Ha! Characters will waste soooooo many AP to get back to their SH!
(Oh wait oh wait, I got one last brilliant idea - let's give the Transcended a skill they can waste CP on, so that they can decide on their own volition to respawn in this wretched plane! LOL!!! Dumb Transcended!)

I really like Elysium. It's easy to get around, has sensible portal placement, good placement of resources, and is fun to just hang out in. I mean, it's heaven (if you're an angel.) It has a cozy feeling to it, even when you're being killed by the same murderhobos over and over again. It offers a very strong sense of space, something I've long considered to be a fundamental element to a great map. I never get lost.

As I don't have an evil character since I think evil has the heavy advantage this breath, I don't spend enough time in Stygia to have an extremely informed opinion on it - I go there to raid and then leave either by portal or death. But I get the impression that it is as mechanically and thematically good for demons as Elysium is for angels. But the Doom series taught me that you should never really be concerned with the scenery of evil places: you should be concerned with the evil things that lurk within. Specifically, killing those evil things before they kill you. Rip and tear, amirite?

I agree 100% with Weirdomen about Purgatorio and honestly couldn't have said it better myself. It's very cool thematically and I enjoy looking at it! On paper, it should be the plane that would fascinate me most. Mechanically, it's absolutely infuriating (for the reasons stated already), and that's really unfortunate. Thus, I'm grateful that of my two transcended characters, one is a Conduit who gets home via wormhole, and the other is a Lich and thus never spawns in Purg at all. Problem solved.

If they count, the Pocket Spaces are thematically neat, but mechanically worthless, and that's disappointing. They're a really neat idea, I just wish there was a stronger reason to set up there or spend time there. Ossuary being useful feels like an accident more than anything. They should all be cool and useful.

I like smallish high risk high reward outer planes or special areas… increased loot or drop rates draw more danger seekers and active players, and more targets.

I have a soft spot in my heart for Nifleheim, would love to bring a small version of it back, but with some cool stuff to find (maybe a faded saloon brimming with pots to harvest)… a paradise for unaligned

Weirdomen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:36 am Oh my, can I talk about Purgatorio?
Cordillera is linked to all planes; all planes are linked to Cordi. Most of the action happens in Cordi anyways. So if you favor movement and action, your SH stays in Cordi; if you favor your own plane's home advantage, then good factions stay in Elysium and evil factions stay in Stygia.
Almost nobody should stay in Purgatorio.
- It doesn't give particular home benefits (no planar damage for your enemies, no particular benefits to you);
- Just as the other outer planes, it's only linked to Cordillera; but it's just so awfully connected. It's like someone thought, Hey how can we build a plane that is a real friggin' pain in the butt to respawn on? Oh easy, let's plan it basically as a group of islands surrounded by void, so the characters will either need to fly or walk through long, boring, depressing, obligatory bridges where nothing interesting will ever have any chance of happening, just some looong stretches of lost AP to go somewhere else. Then let's make two portals, but not like the Elysium and Stygia portals, no! Let's just connect them to the furthermost areas as possible to the middle of Cordillera, we don't want the Transcended to reach their SH so quickly. Oh wait though, there's a problem... see, the portal that links to the westmost area of Cordi is perfect, total AP waster, but the portal that would link to the eastmost area actually brings to a nice place, where people might want to build their SH. I know! I'm just going to put this one portal that brings to a decent place at the sh*tmost location in Purgatorio that I can think of, look, I've planned a very isolated area surrounded by void, right at the periphery of Purgatorio, with another silly bridge as the sole connection! Ha! Characters will waste soooooo many AP to get back to their SH!
(Oh wait oh wait, I got one last brilliant idea - let's give the Transcended a skill they can waste CP on, so that they can decide on their own volition to respawn in this wretched plane! LOL!!! Dumb Transcended!)

This, so very much this, getting out of Purgatory is such a pain in the ass. Sometimes I intentionally go poke a rev to death there just so that they would come and revenge kill me and maybe I would get a luckier respawn.

Purg might be ok if you plan to just play with yourself, perfect place for lockpicking grind I would think for example.

I ditto what others have said.

Stygia is good because it's populated - demons kill demons, angels kill demons, everyone kills pets.

Elysium is meh, but at least it has good search rates if you're an angel, and it "feels" alive with the recent influx of pets. No one kills anyone there, so it's worthless if you want to actually play the game (Well, Plum kills angels, so there's that)

Purgatorio has none of the above, and it has nothing to do. I stayed for weeks there in the southern island saloon grinding.

Once I respawned on one of the smaller islands. On an ES. Good I had a few grenades and tried a luckier respawn.

In this Breath all of the outer planes, and associated gameplay, seems destined to make people gravitate to Cordillera. Which is probably why the outer planes are so divisive, it's by design.

My £0.02 from more recent higher-level play:

Stygia: In this Breath it lacks pvp hunting opportunities compared to prior Breaths. Non-demons require Planar Protection which is available to very few (but can be actively exploited for Infusion wars and critter abuse). Hunting pets is one reason to visit, must acknowledge this, but unless you are a territorial DO or vassal you are not likely to hang around. The Northern sections are isolated and have no real incentive to visit; despite this superficial similarity to Scotland I am not a fan.

Elysium: Specific harvesting options in different regions, good transportation options and central accessibility to Cordillera. These are positives. Ridiculously hostile to non-angels, so much so that there appears to be no incentive for angels to do anything but stand around in the open. Fantastically strong critter hordes attacking anything that isn't indoors and invisible is just nonsense. These are negatives. Final result? In this Breath it is a dead zone for non-angel gameplay.

Purgatorio: Something of a disappointment. Whilst there are reasons to be there for harvesting, and we have a mini Nifleheim and a mini Caldera, the overall effect is of poor tapas rather than full rodizio. Transport options to/from Cordillera are laughably bad and leave you at the arse end of Cordillera compared to where the Elysium portals drop you. I have found it common to respawn and get to a raid with 70% of my AP gone. Airships = good, no void wraparound = bad. No planar damage to angels and demons means less incentive to colonize, a slap in the face to Transcended who have no Planar Protection ability available.

Pocket spaces: Nice touches on some e.g. the Infusion transformations. The Ossuary has meaning for alchemy/Lore/targets and this covers a lot of bases. The other pocket spaces suffer by comparison, if not for badges there may be no reason to visit them ever.

Overall, I understand the design choices, I just don't feel them and the reinforcing gameplay changes seem to make things worse rather than better. Most of my time ends up focussed on Cordillera and therefore lacks variety. Compare to B3 / B3.5 I have almost zero incentive to hang around in the outer planes as I would have done otherwise, there is little incentive to take a portal to the planes.

Weirdomen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:36 am Oh my, can I talk about Purgatorio?
Cordillera is linked to all planes; all planes are linked to Cordi. Most of the action happens in Cordi anyways. So if you favor movement and action, your SH stays in Cordi; if you favor your own plane's home advantage, then good factions stay in Elysium and evil factions stay in Stygia.
Almost nobody should stay in Purgatorio.
- It doesn't give particular home benefits (no planar damage for your enemies, no particular benefits to you);
- Just as the other outer planes, it's only linked to Cordillera; but it's just so awfully connected. It's like someone thought, Hey how can we build a plane that is a real friggin' pain in the butt to respawn on? Oh easy, let's plan it basically as a group of islands surrounded by void, so the characters will either need to fly or walk through long, boring, depressing, obligatory bridges where nothing interesting will ever have any chance of happening, just some looong stretches of lost AP to go somewhere else. Then let's make two portals, but not like the Elysium and Stygia portals, no! Let's just connect them to the furthermost areas as possible to the middle of Cordillera, we don't want the Transcended to reach their SH so quickly. Oh wait though, there's a problem... see, the portal that links to the westmost area of Cordi is perfect, total AP waster, but the portal that would link to the eastmost area actually brings to a nice place, where people might want to build their SH. I know! I'm just going to put this one portal that brings to a decent place at the sh*tmost location in Purgatorio that I can think of, look, I've planned a very isolated area surrounded by void, right at the periphery of Purgatorio, with another silly bridge as the sole connection! Ha! Characters will waste soooooo many AP to get back to their SH!
(Oh wait oh wait, I got one last brilliant idea - let's give the Transcended a skill they can waste CP on, so that they can decide on their own volition to respawn in this wretched plane! LOL!!! Dumb Transcended!)

QTF.

Would love a skill that acted as the opposite to Transcension.