Badges, ranks, The Grind: A discussion

[pyroshroom]

2. However, tie Ranks to Breath achievement stats instead of Career achievement stats, making Ranks a matter of in-breath advancement rather than multi-year veterancy - how long you'd had the character in a breath would still matter as long as they were active and doing stuff. In practice you'd have to Do a lot of Stuff in a Breath to complete this, but would have a lot more freedom to choose your focus of what the Stuff is.

This is the part where I would quit entirely when next breath comes around depending on how easy it is to acquire the achievement badges and ranks. Badge grinding is boring, and I only did it as a means to an end of getting more CP to have more fun with builds. The idea of being forced to redo boring grinds every 2-3 year breath cycle is what made me promptly quit after joining NC to look around in B3. (On the basis of why waste so much time if everything is going to be reset every 2-3 years)

And to give context: When I joined in B3, I came in with nostalgia from nexus war, and I remembered my dream theoretical build idea from NexusWar that was possible with badge CP if I bothered grinding. I have since fulfilled my dream builds already, and have been quite satisfied by them (and will enjoy them for the rest of this breath at least, since I won't bother with that tedium again if it's all reset).

To add on, I think it should be easier for everyone to get to rank I and the extra CP you want. I like this idea:

A possible solution to this could be something like "the last four badges only count this breath but the last two also count in the next one", so this breath you could do 100, 250, 500 and 1000 kills but only the 500 and 1000 would carry over. Alternatively, the easier ones count instead, which still rewards long-term play but not as much.

[Weirdomen]

Writing my two cents here, apologies if some ideas come from newbiehood.

Conceptually, it seems very nice to me that people are rewarded for having played a character for a long time. I would think that this reward should be permanent, but I don't think that it should be "heavy" CP. Even because in my opinion, the stats should be a proxy to measure time spent and active participation in the game, and not something that a character would want to spend crazy AP to achieve. Put simply, IMHO we shouldn't fall too deeply into Goodhart's law territory as we are now, the measure of "veteranship" shouldn't itself become the goal. And if the prize is too high (heavy CP), people will keep boredly grinding to get it, who wouldn't?

Also conceptually, I would think that grinding stats should not be required to complete a "fun" class. I can't complain personally, and I take the messages before mine at face value here, but a few have mentioned that grinding is necessary for some classes to be enjoyable. That'd be a pity.

I really do like the idea that rank progression should be tied to something that's more meaningful in game.

All in all, I'd be in favor of linking rank progression to possibly one unified stat, that resets each new breath, and that's reflective of the fight among Good, Evil and Free Will. In my opinion a simple stat counting characters killed from the other two alignments (the stat would count Angels + Transcended kills for demons, and so on), plus flags captured/retrieved, would do. Together with the XP requirements that are already in place. And I speak as a pacifist-oriented player, but hey, fighting is the spirit of the game.

As for the career badges, perhaps they could be reevaluated to see which ones reflect active, interesting play (I really loved some of the new badge ideas by SkullFace). Instead of giving CP directly, they could give small effects that make the character's life easier, that reflect a character's long presence in the Nexus, but that at the same time aren't worth an actual grind for non-grind-oriented people. Say, for example, with a certain number of badges a character would need progressively less AP to respawn; it's nice if I end up respawning at 1 less AP, but I ain't going to spend absurd AP grinding for this. Also, a discount on AP/MP to set a stronghold. Perhaps adding to the locker or the SH safe at 0 AP, and then, at a higher badge number, retrieving too. (The Suggestions forum might hold some nice ideas.) Little things that make life easier, but aren't that much worth the grind, so there's likely no grind at all. Veteran characters will enjoy them when they get them, and they'll get them when they played actively for long enough.

[Stretch]

I think that “grinds” like Maeval lore are great. Happy to have people who played the game longer have more CP to start if that helps them stick around, just give those who haven’t done all the grinds some extra CP for murdering those players

E.g. track breath kills by rank. Once you have 50 (?) kills at rank A or greater, auto attain rank A. Once you have 50 kills of rank B or greater, you get rank B. Kills count for all of the ranks that they apply to so killing someone at rank I is really good. Grinding also gets you further up the chain and everyone caps out at the same place.

PS: I put “grinds” in quotes because Maeval is a fun and non repetitive mini game vs a repetitive grind. A GLORIOUS QUEST

PPS please tell me corruptors get lore where they have to steal one of every pet…

[Yukari]

cp off grinds has needed to die for years - since the day i showed up - since years before my time - for over a decade

just because the game would be phenomenally better off with its skill progression purely routed through playing it does not insist that the grind system be deleted entirely, rather it'd be likely more engaging with unique mechanical perks

that's all i've ever had in regards to thoughts on this, i was dead sure about halved pet xp and i'm dead sure about this

With Nayru on this one (and also weeks late lmao), badges are so tedious and boring. I try best I can to weave badge grinding in between normal levelling (I got pacted ice dart on Muad so I could level shooting 1000 targets - it was still incredibly boring) but can't really do it on them all. Also as someone else mentioned, it's a huge AP sink on actions that are mostly fruitless (doors/locks grinds, food/alcohol/pill grinds, deaths to an extent) when you could be better using that ap to raid, search for comps, participate in your faction, etc. It's even worse for people who are closely involved in faction logistics, since they gotta pour tons of their own resources into doing stuff for other people that might not give them (any more) achievements (just look at some people's items crafted/repaired stats).

I wanted to make this it's own suggestion thread but might as well here.

What I'd do is simply divorce Rank CP from achievements. Keep only XP as a requirement for CP (and balance thresholds accordingly since now everyone will be on even footing = more people will realistically reach rank I and not only players who've consistently played for 10 years - maybe the required xp has to be increased, idk).

But what will those vets who got 40 cheevos get? Do it like Shartak and enable a section at the bottom of character profiles where players can showcase any/all of their breath/career badges Bronze, Silver, Gold, and then idk, add a fancy coloured trim for 500/1000. Maybe also create a final completionist badge with Catvom's face on it People will grind hard for them pretty icons. This also gives room to increase achievement thresholds - 10,000 kills?!?!?

And if that's not enough, then perhaps every number of cheevs can give you a bunch of xp towards the next rank. E.g. Reach level 30 and have 1 or 2 cheevs? you get 100 or 200 exp towards next rank instantly. Reach rank A with 3-4 cheevs, you get 100~200 more xp, and so on. It will keep the end game similarly balanced, but will give people who have many grinds a bit of a jump start *after* they're maxed and also a little aid for whenever you reset your alts to level 1.

One new player that joined recentlyish is beginning to max out their alts, and it's super painful that we have to tell them now that in order to finish their builds and "enjoy" the late game they have to start doing badge grinds... Oh sure just read these piles of books, make us a few hundred potions. You'll get there.

[SithBob]

Please move / remove if not the correct place. I'm a long time casual player and have only recently started getting more serious about achievements. While I sort of expected them to be boring, cutting / restoring power is both super unfun and boring. You need to constantly be on the move in areas where there is power. You have to balance morality(?) while doing it and you can't just cut/restore like you can break and repair the same door. Just a small data point from a more casual person.

[oath2order]

But what will those vets who got 40 cheevos get? Do it like Shartak and enable a section at the bottom of character profiles where players can showcase any/all of their breath/career badges Bronze, Silver, Gold, and then idk, add a fancy coloured trim for 500/1000. Maybe also create a final completionist badge with Catvom's face on it People will grind hard for them pretty icons. This also gives room to increase achievement thresholds - 10,000 kills?!?!?

I have always wanted to have images for each badge and would absolutely start the grind again for achievement trims.

[SignedName]

An idea on how to make Badges more enjoyable could be to introduce a Badge Store. Instead of instantly being invested into more levels, badges can now be spent on a variety of rewards. The badge-for-CP system would still be available, but you could also use badges to unlock special Achievement-locked skills (let's call them "Perks").

The basic idea being, once you complete a Badge grind, you also unlock Perks that are associated with that grind- for example, instead of making the user Drunk, alcohol now provides the Strength status effect for 10 turns. Different Perks could be locked behind different Badges, and cost different amounts of Badge Points. Let's say there's a higher-tier perk for Alcohol that grants 10 MP per alcohol consumed, that costs 2 Badge Points instead of 1. This adds diversity to end-game content and allows the player to customize their builds in a new way. Shifting the focus away from CP rewards would allow the devs to rebalance class CP costs accordingly so it doesn't feel necessary to grind to get the CP for your build.

But what will those vets who got 40 cheevos get? Do it like Shartak and enable a section at the bottom of character profiles where players can showcase any/all of their breath/career badges Bronze, Silver, Gold, and then idk, add a fancy coloured trim for 500/1000. Maybe also create a final completionist badge with Catvom's face on it People will grind hard for them pretty icons. This also gives room to increase achievement thresholds - 10,000 kills?!?!?

I have always wanted to have images for each badge and would absolutely start the grind again for achievement trims.

Another possible addition to the Badge Store could be additions to the profile page- like an Aura called "Stench of Booze" that adds the line "This person reeks of alcohol" to their character description. Perhaps added as a freebie with an associated Perk so people don't have to choose between accessorizing and unlocking new abilities.