Wyrm Master end game

[Tadpole]

Had some thoughts on Wyrm master end game.
Obviously the Light Speaker one is pretty cool, and has an uber pet (but angels can't really engage with that aspect cos they can't kill it due to MO lose). With that in mind, something like the LS endgame would be cool, but it would need to be WM unique, and offer engagement for Angels with maybe killing an uber pet.

So here's the idea.
What if there were 3 pets in stygia, 1 per evil elder power, something like:
Tholaghru- Tentacle
Ahg-za-haru- Imp
Tlacolotl- Hell hound

And they were just a stronger version of those pets (or they could be totally new pets, kind of like the Udin in Elysium B4).
Now the Wyrm masters can go and spend AP/ MP to mutate and strengthen them.
(either by finding the pet, or there could maybe be a sacrifice pit for each one or something).
Some ways it could be strengthened could be similar to the current mutations available to WMs (change damage types, sadistic, phasing, etc), but some could be different/ unique to each elder powers pet (random invis for imp pet, double tile movement for hell hounds, some kind of slowing/ entangling ability for tentacles) and once a pet was strong enough (had it's health, dmg, soak and regen increased to certain level) it could become an Uber pet version of itself (and offer badge/ CP rewards), up to a max amount of mutations (but make the uber pet part come on before it reaches max, so there is a timing window when it might not be as strong).

If the pets were killed (either during their weak first phase, or their stronger final phase) maybe a WM would need to go to the sacrifice pit to bring them back to life, and then they keep roaming around.
The pets could maybe be limited to 1 3rd of the stygian map each, or maybe limited to certain tiles- tentacle could move along the lava rivers, hell hounds could run around the general land, and imps could move and teleport between building tiles (destroying doors as they go?!?).

There could also be some interesting timing with angels trying to kill the pets as soon as they gain uber status, but before they are buffed as strong as they could be. Also gives options for WM's to buff/ mutate the pets while angels are trying to kill them.

I do have an idea for a middle phase of the pets, where they are not yet uber, but allow WMs to engage with them more, but it's for dev eyes only if this main idea is liked.

So in summary, WM's mutate 3 elder power pets, can buff them up to uber levels, angels (or everyone really) can try to kill them, fun times.

[Tadpole]

I forgot there is actually a suggestions forum, so this should probably get moved there, i would move it myself, if i knew how... but writing a reply might mean i get some more sweet replies with cool end game ideas!

[Alkasyn]

Sounds nice, and definitely something new the community would be able to participate in.

[Stretch]

I like the idea of WMs being able to build uberpets, or even band together to do so.

I'd love the option to unleash them on another plane, with the ability to hunt (similar to paradise pets), and get logs of the attacks/kills they do.

[Yukari]

I have a problem with the implementation of the idea for the same reason I don't like the implementation of the LS endgame: it grabs a class that by its nature is already relegated to a somewhat ap-taxing role in the faction meta (being an obstacle during raids via petwalls) and makes them spend a lot of their already stretched-thin resources in an activity that ultimately doesn't really benefit them directly much (which maybe it's more of a petmaster dilemma - it kind of sucks that once you're stuck with a number of pets, you can't do much else in the way of alchemy, infusion, or whatever else it is you want to do, unless you're an Elementalist). Imagine you wanted to grind but your faction leader said "NO, YOU MUST GO BE A PET BOT FOR ELYSIUM".

I don't mean to say the LS endgame bonuses are bad, but the fact that for the bonuses to be held good factions must give up a good chunk of collective LS ap seems kinda weird (when the class is already kinda boring to play to begin with, I'm told?). I'd hate for WMs to receive the same treatment. It kind of feels a bit like infusing, actually.

I'd either make the mutation actions relatively cheap and/or limited, or let the WM bolster these uber-bets via doing stuff that they already like doing.

A very rough proposition: Successfuly mutating your/factionmates' pets has you accumulate "essence" - which would include getting kills, as your pets auto-mutate with the appropriate skills, thus also making WMs that like raiding or hunting passively get these points. Then, you could grab this essence and dump it into these uberpets in Stygia in one quick action, which would enhance the feral pet according to how much essence you had collected (and maybe even which kind of essence, depending on which kinds of mutations you have been doing). (I'd even suggest something like this for LS endgame TBH.)

[Kandarin]

I have a problem with the implementation of the idea for the same reason I don't like the implementation of the LS endgame: it grabs a class that by its nature is already relegated to a somewhat ap-taxing role in the faction meta (being an obstacle during raids via petwalls) and makes them spend a lot of their already stretched-thin resources in an activity that ultimately doesn't really benefit them directly much (which maybe it's more of a petmaster dilemma - it kind of sucks that once you're stuck with a number of pets, you can't do much else in the way of alchemy, infusion, or whatever else it is you want to do, unless you're an Elementalist). Imagine you wanted to grind but your faction leader said "NO, YOU MUST GO BE A PET BOT FOR ELYSIUM".

I don't mean to say the LS endgame bonuses are bad, but the fact that for the bonuses to be held good factions must give up a good chunk of collective LS ap seems kinda weird (when the class is already kinda boring to play to begin with, I'm told?). I'd hate for WMs to receive the same treatment. It kind of feels a bit like infusing, actually.

Concerns like this are the reason why endgame minigames are limited to max-level characters only. Endgames oughtn't to compete with leveling, and so our design assumption is that once a character is maxed and not so concerned about experience gain, it's okay for us to offer them optional open-ended goals and quests that have inefficiencies or chances of failure/defeat that shouldn't be a part of leveling.

Of course, how well this is received varies from player to player. Some players will feel that if a bonus or goal exists their character must have it and it is not optional. Some other players will feel that as long as their character isn't max Rank they're not really maxxed and thus that something that competes with grinding is a problem. But in practice, from what I've seen it's worked pretty well and there hasn't been an issue with (for instance) Lightspeakers being pressured by their factions to commit more to the LS Endgame than they want to. The community generally understands that endgame minigames are optional.

On the suggestion itself - since I've said this in other places and to other people outside dev, it's not too much of a spoiler to say that dev team does have ideas about a WM Endgame and that those ideas agree with the core of this suggestion - WM Endgame should be about Wyrm Masters creating giant boss monsters! If/when we get around to doing it it won't look quite the same as the OP, but there are some ideas in the OP that have been helpful for getting this to a more concrete plan.