Give es back to VW and harbinger

[sohdbrimks]

These classes are the "hunters" (together with the revs) but how can they hunt without es?
The VW specially is supposed to be a cool assassin, but an assassin should be able to find his targets easily, right?
I don't know how good the harbinger is currently, but we should give them es too just to have parity between good and evil if the VW gets it.

[Goliath]

ES on VW would help the class have one niche, as its damage is worse than each and every single other T3.

[Warharan]

VW is even worse than Holy Champions?

[Goliath]

VW is even worse than Holy Champions?

Holy champ gets search bonuses, terrain modification and spellcasting
VW gets basically nothing, nada, niente

[SaltedSalmon]

Holy champ gets search bonuses, terrain modification and spellcasting
VW gets basically nothing, nada, niente

The best terrain modificaiton got thrown out and spellcasting as a Hybrid is garbage.

Alonai bless the search bonus I guess...

[yurrd]

I am fully behind the whole "give ES back to VW" idea since it would make hunting so much more fun. But that would also immediately catapult VW from terrible hunters to TOTL hunters since they do get a very good movement skill.

If i may counter propose, how about some additions to the Mark and Invisibility tree?
1. Mark tree - Being extremely proficient in striking from the shadows, VWs are better attuned to know if there are hidden characters in the square. VWs will still have to use at least 1AP to know who it is. For squares with an interior, VW would have to go in to see if there are hidden characters and then use 1AP

2. Invisibility tree - Gaining the experience of moving and striking while invisible, VWs can sense if there's an invisible character on the tile. That's it. VWs have never been able to attack or see invisible characters anyway, so being able to sense is a plus.

Now, i'm just pulling things out of thin air so feel free to shoot it down and amend stuff about it so VWs can be a better hunter, without making them OP.

[Goliath]

I am fully behind the whole "give ES back to VW" idea since it would make hunting so much more fun. But that would also immediately catapult VW from terrible hunters to TOTL hunters since they do get a very good movement skill.

Currently, VWs have nothing they're best at, or even great at. They aren't good at hunting because search-hunting isn't viable. They aren't good at killing because their damage numbers are low and their MP costs are pretty hefty. They aren't durable. They don't provide any utility.

But what if we gave them ES? They now can check an enormous amount of interior tiles, 140 if they don't attack, compared to around 28 other hunters can check. And that would most certainly make them the best at hunting interior tiles (the revenant is still best at hunting exterior ones, thanks to higher damage, invis-sight and summons). Would that make them OP? Certainly not, as hunting would still be their only strength, and other classes would be better for other things, particularly on raid scenarios where VW is much worse than last breath.

Were a VW with ES would shine the most would most likely be feral play, as they have a rather decent innate weapon (which sucks at hunting Revenants, but alas) and great complements to hiding.

.If i may counter propose, how about some additions to the Mark and Invisibility tree?
1. Mark tree - Being extremely proficient in striking from the shadows, VWs are better attuned to know if there are hidden characters in the square. VWs will still have to use at least 1AP to know who it is. For squares with an interior, VW would have to go in to see if there are hidden characters and then use 1AP

2. Invisibility tree - Gaining the experience of moving and striking while invisible, VWs can sense if there's an invisible character on the tile. That's it. VWs have never been able to attack or see invisible characters anyway, so being able to sense is a plus.

Regarding your proposed alternatives, I don't think adding an AP tax to finding a target is good, as that adds an AP tax to combat where VW is already less efficient than its peers. While I think invis-sense on the VW is thematic, the cost of going invisible is very high across the board (hiding is rather cheap, it just costs a few AP); being able to find invisible characters for a mere 1AP seems a bit aggravating for invisibility users. I think, if invis-sense was given to VWs, it should have a high use cost.

tl;dr: I think it would be great for VW to have ES.